Tiller the Killer Killed

George Tiller

George Tiller, the foremost practitioner of late term abortions in this country, was shot to death this morning as he was acting as an usher at  Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita Kansas.  This is of course a terrible crime, and whoever committed  it must pay the full penalty exacted by the law.  What George Tiller did for a living was also a terrible crime, even though it was legal.  May God have mercy on his soul.  The type of violence that took the life of Tiller is just as opposed to the pro-life movement as is the violence that he perpetrated on the innocent.

Update I: Press conference by police video here.

Update II: Suspect in custody.

Update III: More information about the suspect and the crime.

Update IV: The name of the man in custody is Scott Roeder.

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130 Responses to Tiller the Killer Killed

  1. Oh hey, you noticed. Pretty lukewarm condemnation.

  2. Donald R. McClarey says:

    Considering Ian that I condemned Tiller’s slaying as much as I condemned Tiller’s slaying of the innocent, I’d say my condemnation was hardly lukewarm.

  3. jess says:

    Sorry, McClarey, but your headline plays into the Daily Kos, et al. description of pro-lifers as ‘celebrating’ Dr. Tiller’s murder. Please change it. You do our cause no good and only fuel the pro-abortion advocate’s prejudices. By the way, Operation issued a much stronger condemnation of the murder.

  4. Donald R. McClarey says:

    Sorry Jess, “Tiller the Killer Killed” is a completely accurate headline and will stay as it is.

  5. Steve says:

    Live by the sword, die by the sword.

    I condemn this killing. I condemned the execution of Saddam Huissein (who at least wasn’t a danger to kill any more). Let’s quit fighting each other and just pray for the man’s soul.

  6. Eric Brown says:

    I pray that the almighty and indivisible triune God have mercy on his immortal soul. Heaven help him.

    A very sad, sad fact. The only tragedy in this life is not to be a saint. I hope with all my soul that God’s justice is His mercy. For without it, I hardly imagine how any of us won’t perish…

  7. Gerard E. says:

    Positively awful. Too many nuts in the pro-life camp- need to be exposed and told to vamoose. May the Lord have mercy on both souls- victim and shooter.

  8. Mike Petrik says:

    Don,
    FWIW I do not think your headline is out of line at all, and your condemnation was plain and unequivocal to those who read English regularly. Daily Kos is gonna do what the Daily Kos always does, no matter what. Who cares.

  9. Donald R. McClarey says:

    When it comes to Daily Kos Mike that is precisely my attitude. I have already deleted a few comments from anti-Catholic bigots eager to bash the Church and I will be happy to do the same for any of their colleagues who wander by.

  10. Joe Hargrave says:

    Who really cares what Daily Kos or anyone else thinks?

    I have a few things to say here.

    The man who killed Tiller may be any number of things; morally wrong, for instance. But he is not a ‘nut’, to answer Gerard E. George Tiller was committing infanticide in his clinic. That is what is ‘nuts’, our society tolerated it for decades, that is what is insane.

    Secondly, I only say he may be. Because I’m not so sure how ‘wrong’ this really is. If George Tiller were euthanizing five year olds in that clinic, would we have the same reaction? What about Jews? Or black people?

    No, we say it is ‘nuts’ and we ‘condemn’ this man’s killing… why, exactly? Because a minority of the people in this society believe that human life is worthless? Because they believe that the children taken to Tiller to be murdered didn’t really count?

    Or is it because it is ‘vigilantism’? If I saw any of you on the street being violently attacked, I would intervene, with lethal force if necessary, to save your life. One woman already tried incapacitating Tiller by shooting him in the arms and the man went back to ‘work’. This time, he won’t be going back.

    I don’t know how I’m supposed to feel about the death of a man responsible for crimes against humanity. I wouldn’t cry if someone killed Himmler or Goebbels during WWII, and I’m certainly not going to cry now. Delete this comment if you must. I don’t care. I’m not going to lie and pretend that I ‘condemn’ this killing. I think this man got exactly what he deserved. If that makes me a monster, so be it.

  11. Joe Hargrave says:

    I mean, follow the auto-generated links!

    “Notorious partial-birth abortion specialist Dr. George Tiller of Wichita, KS, was caught on hidden video admitting to aborting babies a day before the mother’s due date.”

    How long were we supposed to ‘tolerate’ this?

  12. Darcy says:

    The question is not whether the headline is accurate. The question is: does the paralleling of “killer” and “killed” (and the resulting alliteration) *under the circumstances* promote a false stereotype of pro-lifers as not taking violence against abortionists seriously, a stereotype that potentially hurts us with a far broader audience than just Daily Kos types? I think the answer to that is clearly yes. The text of the post is obviously much better, but I don’t think that solves the problem with the headline.

  13. Donald R. McClarey says:

    I condemn the killing Joe because it is cold blooded murder. In a society which protected the unborn a monster like Tiller would be deserving of the death penalty. However that is not our society as it currently exists. Instead the killer, and we do not know his motivation yet, decided to act as legislature, judge, jury and executioner. No society can tolerate such action and long endure. Because some of our laws are bad and allow evils such as abortion to flourish does not give individuals license to act as if they were God or the State. As a practical matter this action also does not help the pro-life cause at all, and will probably be a short-term negative. The spilling of blood, even that of someone like Tiller, is not the way to stop abortion in our land.

  14. As the pro-life movement, our very reason for being is to oppose legal murder — which means that we can never allow murder to be seen as an acceptable solution to the problem. I think that violence against abortionists (however emotionally satisfying it might seem on first thought) is probably a greater obstacle to ending abortion than Planned Parenthood.

  15. Matt McDonald says:

    Joe,

    I’m a little surprised by your response. Now I won’t shed any tears for Tiller, but his murder can not be justified under Catholic teaching. It is particularly disheartening that this will cause grave damage to the pro-life cause, both in our ability to win hearts and mind, and in the inevitable increased oppression of pro-life action by the government.

  16. Joe Hargrave says:

    Yes, yes, I understand the prudential political arguments. All of those considerations would stop me as an individual from killing someone like Tiller.

    But on a moral level, I can’t bring myself to say that the individual act is ‘wrong’.

    You say our society cannot endure if we act as judge, jury, and executioner. In principle I agree. In practice, how can our society endure abortion, especially, God help us, ‘late term’ abortion?

    That’s the real sickness here – even most pro-choicers are squeamish about late-term abortion, most only support it in the first trimester because they don’t believe there is really a person there. Few people say that about late-term abortion. There is still a consensus, a rough one, but an existing one, that babies that far along shouldn’t be killed.

    Killing Tiller doesn’t stop abortion, but it puts a stop to a number of late-term abortions, one of the most notorious clinics in the country (in fact, isn’t it – wasn’t it – really the only one)?

  17. Matt McDonald says:

    ps. the blame for this act will no doubt be pointed at the pro-life movement, when in fact it is the fault of the government… especially Kathleen Sebelius who helped Tiller continue his deep offense against human dignity.

  18. Matt McDonald says:

    Joe,

    But on a moral level, I can’t bring myself to say that the individual act is ‘wrong’.

    let the Church’s teaching guide you. It IS wrong.

  19. Joe Hargrave says:

    Of course I realize that ‘damage’ will be done to the pro-life movement, but lets be honest here – the people going crazy about this on the left, it isn’t as if they were one day away from becoming pro-life converts and will now reconsider.

    But how can I turn away from the reality of what this man did? How can we all?

    Maybe it is perverse but if it were just a ‘regular’ abortion doctor I’d probably be saying many of the things the rest of you are saying. It seems we have been able to tolerate first trimester abortion without going to pieces as a society. But late-term abortion, that this man was even out there doing this, he may as well have been murdering born children.

    So he wasn’t just any old abortion doctor – he was killing living beings that most people agree are living beings, and with impunity, even though the law was after him. So in my mind that changes the dynamics of the whole thing. If you stumbled upon a serial killer on the loose and your choices were to either shoot him or let him get away to kill again, what would you do?

  20. Donald R. McClarey says:

    “In practice, how can our society endure abortion, especially, God help us, ‘late term’ abortion?”

    Long term Joe I don’t think we can. The moral rot caused to our ability to distinguish right from wrong when we tolerate daily the mass slaughter of innocents in our society mocks any pretensions we have to be civilized. If abortion isn’t wrong, nothing is wrong. However, the slaying of Tiller is also wrong and gets us no closer to our goal.

  21. Joe Hargrave says:

    Don,

    What does get us closer? I really want to know at this point.

    It certainly wasn’t going ballistic over Obama’s speech at ND. That didn’t help anyone or save anyone.

    And now this. Yes, I know how it is going to look. Yes, I know that if we don’t link arms and sing cumbya and put flowers on Tiller’s grave we will look like cold hearted monsters who defamed the memory of a true American hero.

    Well I won’t do it. I can’t do it. I can live with first-trimester abortion being legal and working to change it through the culture of life. Late-term abortion is something else. It is in a different category. Am I wrong?

  22. But on a moral level, I can’t bring myself to say that the individual act is ‘wrong’.

    I think the key here is that, as a matter of Catholic social teaching, there are duties and rights that legitimate civil authorities have which it would be wrong (indeed, gravely wrong) for individuals to do on their own.

    It is sometimes the duty of the state to execute a criminal to protect society (though recent popes argue this is seldom the case under current conditions) but it is never right for an individual to kill or even injure someone who is not a direct and immediate threat to others in a self defense context. It’s not just that it’s not a good idea for individuals to mete out retributive justice themselves — it’s actively immoral.

    I think the only sense in which one can say this was a natural result of Tiller’s own evils is the sense in which some argued that the US brought 9-11 on itself. One can argue that the US has done a lot to make young Saudis and Egyptians hate us, but that doesn’t make the mass slaughter of civilians remotely right. In this case, I certainly won’t be watering Tiller’s grave with tears. But the fact that he was a moral reprobate doesn’t make it even remotely right to murder him in cold blood.

  23. Joe Hargrave says:

    “it is never right for an individual to kill or even injure someone who is not a direct and immediate threat to others in a self defense context.”

    An immediate threat – so I ask again, if you stumble upon a serial killer and you have a chance to take him out, knowing that he will evade the law as he has been doing and murder again, is it not legitimate defense of others to take him out?

    God forgive me, I think it is. And if I’m wrong, I’ll take it up with God when I die.

  24. Joe Hargrave says:

    I realize even having this conversation here is probably a bad idea and will just make us all look bad.

    Don, feel free to wipe the whole thing out if you want. I don’t want to be the lone ‘nut’ who is responsible for AC getting a bad rap.

  25. Donald R. McClarey says:

    “What does get us closer?”

    Overturning Roe and having abortion become a matter of legislation. Once it is a matter of legislation, I think it is merely a matter of time for pro-life victory. Demographics in politics is destiny, and pro-lifers long term are going to be an ever-increasing segment of the population while pro-aborts will be ever decreasing.

  26. if you stumble upon a serial killer and you have a chance to take him out, knowing that he will evade the law as he has been doing and murder again, is it not legitimate defense of others to take him out?

    I would tend to say no — though I can be sympathetic to the classic noir ending in a fictional situation.

    I guess it strikes me as like just war: One has to imagine that the benefits of righting the wrong through vigilantism would outweigh the damage to society that vigilantism causes. In a fairly developed and stable society, I have a really hard time seeing how that calculus would work out.

  27. Donald R. McClarey says:

    Not at all Joe. You speak from the heart and out of a deep passion to protect the unborn and I have great respect for that.

  28. Matt McDonald says:

    Joe,

    Well I won’t do it. I can’t do it. I can live with first-trimester abortion being legal and working to change it through the culture of life. Late-term abortion is something else. It is in a different category. Am I wrong?

    while it may feel more horrible to consider a more advanced unborn child being killed, the moral value of the act is identical.

    if you stumble upon a serial killer and you have a chance to take him out, knowing that he will evade the law as he has been doing and murder again, is it not legitimate defense of others to take him out?

    You may morally take him under arrest, if he tries to flee you may use minimum amount of force required to prevent his escape even deadly force if there is no other means to effect his arrest. You may not morally kill a person who does not pose an immediate threat.

  29. For those of you who still think any intentional killing of human beings can ever be justified, including you, Joe, who I thought was one of the more rational of the contributors here but who disappointed me with your “he got what he deserved” crap:

    “[T]he value of a human being is intrinsic. It is not a function of being American or Iraqi, Israeli or Palestinian. Your intrinsic value does not cease if you feel meaningless or suffer pain. It does not end if you are no longer young or attractive. It does not cease when you are comatose or drunk or imprisoned. It is not based on your actions, your functioning, your achievement, or your failure, even if you are a murderer yourself. Your intrinsic value does not begin when you are wanted or approved. It does not start when you are recognized by the state. It is not ‘bestowed’ on you when you start breathing or talking or acting responsibly.

    Intrinsic personal value —- the foundation of ethical value — starts when our individual life journeys begin. It ends only with the cessation of our existence.”

    John Kavanaugh, SJ, Who Count As Persons?: Human Identity and the Ethics of Killing, p. 121.

  30. Donald R. McClarey says:

    Take it up with God and the Church Catholic Anarchist. Anyone who can’t see the moral difference between a murderer and a cop who shoots the murderer before he is able to kill a victim is a moral cretin.

  31. Take it up with God and the Church Catholic Anarchist. Anyone who can’t see the moral difference between a murderer and a cop who shoots the murderer before he is able to kill a victim is a moral cretin.

    No YOU take it up with God and the Church. The Church does not teach that murderers are of less value than non-murderers. Learn what your church teaches.

  32. Donald R. McClarey says:

    From the Catechism:

    “2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”65

    2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

    If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66
    2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.”

  33. Joe Hargrave says:

    Look, Michael,

    I can’t deny that killing the man in this way was objectively wrong… it isn’t justified. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a human part of me, perhaps a fallen part but a human part nonetheless, that doesn’t rejoice in this man’s death. He was a butcher, a murderer of children, and I can’t pretend not to think about that.

    I am not a pacifist, I never have been and I never will be. I reject categorical rejections of violence. I’m opposed to the war in Iraq because I’m opposed to imperialism, for instance, not because I’m opposed to war in general.

    I realize that I could have and probably should have just kept my mouth shut. But I’m disgusted by all of the eulogies for this man, all of this ‘he was a such a wonderful man’ nonsense, and then the media and other Christians telling us all how we must feel about this. The man murdered children, savagely, without remorse – he believed he was doing a positive good.

    So, pardon me if I can’t just be a good little Christian soldier and fall into line immediately. There is a non-Christian, pre-Christian part of me that believes, intensely, that this scum got what he deserved. He was a horrible oppressor of the innocent, a coward and a butcher. He was evil. That doesn’t make his murder intrinsically right, or justify the actions of his murderer. But it does mean I’m going to be faced with one of those situations we are all faced with in our lives, if we are human – a situation where the wrong thing feels and seems right in many ways, and where my reaction is to cheer and not mourn.

  34. Joe Hargrave says:

    I mean, I have to say, at this point, things such as this make me want to wretch:

    “Holy St. Mary, Mother of God, come to the aid of Mr. Tiller, your lost child, and bear him on angel’s wings to the celestial realms above this sorrowful existence. May he and those whose lives he took find reconciliation and friendship in the lush glades of the world to come, where the sun always shines and the sea is no more. Amen.”

    http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/

    Is this really what Jesus had in mind when he taught forgiveness? I’ll say killing him was wrong, but that’s ALL I’m going to say. The rest of this fluff is disgusting.

    And I hope everyone realizes as well that there is NO AMOUNT of groveling that you will be able to do that will EVER appease pro-abortion forces. There is nothing you can say, nothing you can do, to convince them that you don’t secretly revel in this. That is only one reason I feel little apprehension about being open about this. Your condemnations mean nothing to them, they have already condemned you and nothing will change it. So I may as well say what I like, while I still have a first amendment right to do so.

  35. i. says:

    yeah, got it, joe? you’re only “rational” so long as your views line up with mine.

    when you can move beyond fetus worship and learn to express far more outrage at the death of this abortionist than you can muster for his victims, then I’ll consider readmitting you to the ranks of “rational”, “enlightened”, and “thinking” Catholics.

  36. Joe – I respect your honesty in dealing with that part of yourself that feels in its gut that he “got what he deserved.” I agree about the need to be honest about what this man did with his life.

    But I think you are right to identify the feeling that “he got what he deserved” as coming from a “non-Christian, pre-Christian” part of yourself. That identification is important. Which part of yourself is your true self? Which part is true? Which part is of God? That’s another identification you need to reflect on.

  37. Elaine Krewer says:

    No matter what one feels about Tiller’s death, it is a tragedy that he did not publicly repent of his actions before he died, nor will he ever get that opportunity. Could he have become another famous pro-life “convert” like Norma McCorvey, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, or Carol Everett? We’ll never know. He did still attend church, so maybe, just maybe, somewhere in him there was still a flicker of conscience which could have been stirred by an encounter with the right person. It’s happened to other ex-abortionists. Maybe it could have happened to him eventually, but now that opportunity is lost forever.

    Perhaps, if he did manage to squeak into Purgatory, part of his penance will be seeing the souls of all the thousands of innocent babies whom he killed. Maybe they will pray for him if we can’t or wont.

  38. Anthony says:

    This story is creepy for me, as just last night I was with some other Catholic friends and we debated the licitness of killing an abortionist, particularly if he was in the act of performing an abortion.

    Guys: moral means to a moral end.

    This event will not help anyone. If anything it will cause both sides to dig in and continue the tit-for-tat nature of the struggle; avoiding any kind of conversation that can result in changing hearts and minds toward a culture of life.

  39. This event will not help anyone. If anything it will cause both sides to dig in and continue the tit-for-tat nature of the struggle; avoiding any kind of conversation that can result in changing hearts and minds toward a culture of life.

    What most of you are overlooking in your debates about whether it will “help or hurt the cause” is the fact that a human being was murdered. What that fact will “do for the pro-life movement” is irrelevant.

  40. Foxfier says:

    Is this the same Scott Roeder that had the bomb stuff in his car?
    Mentioned here and connection suggested here.

  41. Donald R. McClarey says:

    The slayer of Tiller, if the fellow in custody is the slayer, will now, rightly, be put on trial for the killing of Tiller. Tiller, I assume, has now received the judgment from a Higher Tribunal as to the human beings he put to death.

  42. Donald R. McClarey says:

    A lot of information is going around the internet as to Scott Roeder. I am not posting any of it until I see some verification that this is the same Scott Roeder.

  43. Anthony says:

    “What most of you are overlooking in your debates about whether it will “help or hurt the cause” is the fact that a human being was murdered. What that fact will “do for the pro-life movement” is irrelevant.”

    Yes Michael, this was brought up.

    I believe my exact quote that night was “um, why is someone getting killed?”

  44. Matt McDonald says:

    Michael J. Iafrate,

    What most of you are overlooking in your debates about whether it will “help or hurt the cause” is the fact that a human being was murdered. What that fact will “do for the pro-life movement” is irrelevant.

    Yes, and tomorrow morning thousands will be murdered in abortuaries like the one Tiller operated, do you not recognize that? The work of the pro-life movement is more important than a murder, in fact as evil an act as this, the murder of an unborn child is worse.

  45. Actually, Matt, for once I was pretty impressed by your comments in this thread. Until your last comment, that is.

  46. Joe Hargrave says:

    See, this far leftist is saying something we need to pay attention to on Daily Kos:

    “Words Are Powerful. Those people that equate abortion with murder are at least partially responsible for the death of Dr. Tiller and many like him. They might not have pulled the trigger or even knowingly approved of the act, but is it completely out of the question that if you scream about the slaughter of babies and the righteousness of your cause that someone might actually believe these things and feel it is the right thing to do? ”

    The answer is no. It is not completely out of the question. There is a primal human instinct in us that wants to prevent child murder in any way we can. I will not deny it in me.

    I have struggled with this issue for years. I have forced myself to believe that grassroots culture-of-life building is the best way to fight abortion. On a practical level I still believe that.

    What this fellow won’t say, of course, is that we are not merely screaming about babies being murdered – they ARE being murdered. So where does that leave us? Why is it categorically wrong to kill someone like Tiller when we still have just war theory? There are people who will defend the slaughter of a million Iraqi civilians through sanctions and ‘shock and awe’ bombings, and who will at the same time bend over backwards to condemn the guy who shot Tiller. Does that make any sense? It looks crazy, it looks like modern liberal sensibilities gone completely mad. War when we need it – but one child murdering bastard, we all have to join together and hold hands and hold a damned prayer vigil for.

    And all for what, the law? We’d support a million deaths because it was ‘lawful’ and oppose one because it was ‘unlawful’. Oh yes, I understand full well the arguments against vigilantism and for the rule of law. But there are times in history where it becomes a crime to obey the law, and a positive moral duty to resist. Even the Church teaches this”

    “But where the power to command is wanting, or where a law is enacted contrary to reason, or to the eternal law, or to some ordinance of God, obedience is unlawful, lest, while obeying man, we become disobedient to God.” Pope Leo XIII, Libertas

    Does that mean what happened today was wrong? I DON’T KNOW. One minute I think it is, another minute, I think it isn’t. But I want to get it out for public discussion, even if I am to be cast in a negative light. I’m going to follow my conscience here. I hope by the end of the day I have some perspective.

  47. i. says:

    who gives a crap what this murder means for the efforts to end abortion? you people are so caught up in your fetal protection efforts that you fail to realize that a REAL LIVE ACTUAL HUMAN BEING was actually murdered today.

    see, there is an abortion-related killing for which i can show some outrage, even if i can never quite manage it for the fetuses for which you all are so enamoured. but with this kind of outrage, i can still engage in one of my favorite activities: the condemnation of baby-worshipping anti-abortion zealots who don’t quite measure up to my morally superior “thinking Catholic” standards.

  48. Joe Hargrave says:

    i,

    Tiller was murdering children one day away from being born.

    Anyone who defends that is a vile scumbag.

  49. Matt McDonald says:

    Joe Hargrave,

    Why is it categorically wrong to kill someone like Tiller when we still have just war theory?

    because it does not meet the conditions of Just War.

    There are people who will defend the slaughter of a million Iraqi civilians through sanctions and ‘shock and awe’ bombings

    This is a blatant lie, you should be ashamed of yourself for repeating it. The death toll of Iraq is liberally estimated at 160,000. This includes those killed by the US and those killed by the terrorists. We all mourn the killing of all innocents, while we may defend the actions which led to them.

    and who will at the same time bend over backwards to condemn the guy who shot Tiller. Does that make any sense? It looks crazy, it looks like modern liberal sensibilities gone completely mad. War when we need it – but one child murdering bastard, we all have to join together and hold hands and hold a damned prayer vigil for.

    I tend to agree with this. Just because he’s dead doesn’t mean we lose a lot more sleep over him than any other murdered killer, but we are talking here primarily about the terrible affect this will have on the pro-life movement.

    And all for what, the law? We’d support a million deaths because it was ‘lawful’ and oppose one because it was ‘unlawful’. Oh yes, I understand full well the arguments against vigilantism and for the rule of law. But there are times in history where it becomes a crime to obey the law, and a positive moral duty to resist. Even the Church teaches this”

    “But where the power to command is wanting, or where a law is enacted contrary to reason, or to the eternal law, or to some ordinance of God, obedience is unlawful, lest, while obeying man, we become disobedient to God.” Pope Leo XIII, Libertas

    Does that mean what happened today was wrong? I DON’T KNOW. One minute I think it is, another minute, I think it isn’t. But I want to get it out for public discussion, even if I am to be cast in a negative light. I’m going to follow my conscience here. I hope by the end of the day I have some perspective.

    THis is not a question of US law being broken, that’s not really important, it’s about the moral law. If the moral law requires that 1,000,000 be killed then we are sad, but it must be done, and each time the moral law is broken in a killing it is morally abhorent.

  50. Foxfier says:

    I thought this quote over at CMR was fitting:
    Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord GOD. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord GOD. Return and live!

    Tiller being killed is sad– same way that a double murder/suicide is sad.
    Maybe more sad, because someone else dragged themselves down, and because it will be used to kill more children.
    No matter what the truth ends up being shown to be, this will be used to slaughter more perfectly innocent kids. Understandably, that weighs more on folks’ minds than one death, no matter how much we wish that death hadn’t happened even without that side-effect.

  51. nonnie mouse says:

    i. — a “REAL LIVE ACTUAL HUMAN BEING” is murdered every single time an abortion is performed.

    Tiller’s death is regrettable.Hopefully he had time to repent and make his peace.

    Two wrongs do not make a right. Hopefully Tiller’s murderer will face justice.

  52. Joe Hargrave says:

    Matt,

    I am not ashamed, because I included the sanctions on that list, which killed hundreds of thousands of Iraq’s during the Clinton years.

  53. Matt McDonald says:

    Joe,

    I am not ashamed, because I included the sanctions on that list, which killed hundreds of thousands of Iraq’s during the Clinton years.

    we are to blame now for all the people Saddam killed by his madness????

  54. Donald R. McClarey says:

    Joe and Matt, this thread is not about the Iraq War. I’d appreciate if we could return the discussion to Tiller. And with that I am turning in, since tomorrow will begin fairly early for me. Everyone, please keep your comments charitable to other commenters.

  55. i. says:

    please. i’m pro-life. in ALL that the term means.

    what i am not, is someone who limits my pro-life activities to merely being anti-abortion like all you baby-worshipping freaks.

    you’ll just have to take my word for it that i oppose abortion, since you’ll never find me expressing the kind of outrage against the killing of the unborn that you’ll find me expressing against other injustices.

  56. Joe Hargrave says:

    Congratulations on being pro-life.

    Where do you get off calling the rest of us ‘baby worshiping freaks’?

    What do you know about my beliefs or anyone elses?

    Why would you assume that being opposed to the slaughter of infants precludes one from being opposed to other crimes?

    Is it beyond your mental horizon to imagine that I can be as outraged as I am about Tiller’s practice and not too sorry that he’s dead, and also be as passionate about other life issues?

  57. Foxfier says:

    “Baby-worshiping freaks”?

    Generally, I don’t find much use in quoting the Bible at folks– either they already agree or they don’t, so it doesn’t do much good, but wasn’t there something from the Big Guy about how you do to little kids…..?

  58. Matt McDonald says:

    i.,

    Please stop. Your irony is not lost on some of us but it is lost on the intended target, and it is causing much confusion.

  59. paul zummo says:

    I know it is late in what has been a long day, but some people really need to fine-tune their parody detectors around here.

  60. Matt – i’s humor is not lost on me. I’m merely ignoring the comments.

  61. Jay Anderson says:

    I think “i.” may be engaging is a rather amateurish effort to lampoon another commenter who once referred to pro-lifers as “baby-worshipping weirdos”.

  62. I think “i.” may be engaging is a rather amateurish effort to lampoon another commenter who once referred to pro-lifers as “baby-worshipping weirdos”.

    I referred to certain pro-lifers as baby-worshiping weirdos, sure. But not all. I know plenty of pro-lifers who don’t fit that description.

  63. Joe Hargrave says:

    This isn’t the time for jokes. Maybe some people should fine tune their ‘take this s*** seriously’ detectors.

  64. I’ll say killing him was wrong, but that’s ALL I’m going to say. The rest of this fluff is disgusting.

    Yeah, I’m basically with you on that, Joe.

  65. Foxfier says:

    A man is dead, the entire pro-life lobby is going to take the rap for it, children are going to die and someone thinks it’s time for an in-joke?

  66. Tim Shipe says:

    Civil wars and Revolutions have been fought over issues of less importance than abortion- BUT- abortion is more tricky in this regard- who is delivering these children over for execution? Their moms,dads, maybe grandparents as well. This is a collective insanity to be sure- I can well relate having spent much of my twenties being a passive pro-choice male- without any real knowledge of what abortion was- I just casually assumed that it was the cool thing, the pro-woman thing, to be pro-choice on a personal and political level. It took several women in my life to finally convince me otherwise, along with the horrifying discovery of “Silent Scream”.

    If there is going to be a Civil War over abortion, I’m not convinced it is inevitable or in line with the current Church thinking on violence and warfare in modern society’s culture of death. We can blame the abortionists completely, but this passes over the chief difficulty- somehow mothers and fathers have got it in their head that since a child conceived was unplanned, it may be best for all concerned to just make that conception go away. This is the heart of the matter, this is where the insanity begins, but it has it’s roots in our approach to sexual activity, to love and marriage, along with a basic comprehension of the biology of life that begins in the womb.

    If one million children were being rounded up by the government or planned parenthood against the will of their parents, and put to death, you would not have to be blogging outrage- the parents would be the ones taking up arms and leading the revolution. But that isn’t how it is working- and that makes all the difference- we have to wake everyone up- little acts of terrorism/murder may make some people feel good, and it could even work to change the larger society- terrorism could work in a worldly success kind of way- but the Christian way is unique, and it relies a lot on a strong dose of Magisterium- Liberation theology was reigned in because it smacked of Zealotry, and I think a violent pro-life movement would become a similar thing- putting our faith in our manly drive for violent resolution in the Now- not waiting around for the Holy Spirit to work slowly through the population.

    If the pope comes out and declares that a violent civil war is needed in America and Europe to save the lives of the millions of unborn victims- then there you would find a great argument for the kind of thing that happened today- but right now I am going with the Prince of Peace and His official designates in promoting a resolution to abortion that focuses on prayer, education of the young in particular, and political activism. It may seem soft and unmanly, but you know- what does it profit us to win the abortion war but lose our individual souls? No one thought the Soviet Empire would just crumble away without some kind of massive war- maybe with nukes- but it did. Abortion is a war within, it is a war where mothers and fathers are killing their own children- how do you fight a war like that? It is completely unconventional, irrational, it must be fought in an utterly unique fashion- hearts and minds- culture-economics- evangelization- re-evangelization- legal challenges. Check out the story of how slavery came to an end in Great Britain in the film “Amazing Grace”. I have really been feeling my own mortality of late, and when I consider meeting up with God any time soon, I want to go with a clean heart, humility and gratitude, forgiveness, love, looking at justice from the vantage point of my own sins first. When anyone dies, I believe it is my duty to pray for them- I do not desire anyone to be in hell, because I fear maybe we all deserve to go there- God may not grade us on a curve- if we don’t measure up to Jesus’ perfection, or empty ourselves completely to allow Him to reign supreme inside our hearts in every way- then what is God to make of us when we finally die here on earth? Mercy oh Lord on every miserable human being- me too.

  67. Tito Edwards says:

    What happened today is a travesty.

    I agree with Donald and the heading to this post is very accurate.

    I am sure we will have more information as the evening progresses.

    From the information I have seen it seems that Mr. Roeder is part of the anti-government movement. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the pro-life movement.

    Case closed (assuming the first reports of who Mr. Roeder is correct).

    And speaking of “assuming”, it is particularly disturbing that our dear President has come out condemning the killings and associating it with the pro-life movement.

    Deeply disturbing.

  68. George Crosley says:

    Hey “Ronald,” go back to DummycratUnderground where you can be an idiot and not have to impersonate idiots.

  69. Don the Kiwi says:

    Ronald.

    Your sentiments are abhorrent.
    I suspect Don will delete your comment when he awakes.
    All deliberate killing of this nature is wrong.
    Sort yourself out.

  70. Tito Edwards says:

    Ronald,

    Extreme liberal trolls will not be allowed to defame the good name of the Pro-Life movement.

    If you want to engage in a constructive dialogue, please do so respectfully in addressing the issue. Not demonizing those that you disagree with.

  71. Tito Edwards says:

    Ronald,

    You have been banned.

    No extreme left wing trolls will (or extreme right wing for that matter) be tolerated.

    The American Catholic has identified several extreme liberal trolls that have been roaming Pro-Life websites and blogs and we have banned them from defaming the good name of the Pro-Life movement.

  72. […] on the polemic from President Obama that ratcheted up the rhetoric surrounding the tragic death of abortionist George Tiller [emphasis mine]: I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church […]

  73. Tito Edwards says:

    Commenting will temporarily close for the evening until we return in the morning so we can continue monitoring comments.

  74. Donald R. McClarey says:

    Comments are now reopened on this thread.

  75. Donald R. McClarey says:

    Thank you Tito for banning Ronald. He was either a loon or a pro-abort attempting to stir a reaction which could be used on pro-abort web-sites.

  76. Matt McDonald says:

    Michael J. Iafrate,

    Matt – i’s humor is not lost on me. I’m merely ignoring the comments.

    I said the irony is lost on you… I don’t think i. is trying to amuse you, he/she is trying to awaken you to the ridiculousness of your comments.

  77. Rhonda Lugari says:

    I feel the same way Joe Hargrave does. I was relieved and happy when I heard the news about George Tiller. I think anybody in their right mind would feel the same way.
    The “consequences” for the pro-life movement are going to be what?

  78. Matt McDonald says:

    Rhonda,

    The “consequences” for the pro-life movement are going to be what?

    Governmental oppression. Expanded demonization. Reduced ability to spread message.

    All of these things are already occurring but will be substantially increased.

  79. Rhonda says:

    When have those things you mentioned had any real impact on the pro-life movement? What victories can we claim?
    When the death of George Tiller is called “Tragic” and it is legal to kill babies at any point in the womb and they are left to die in hospitals then I’d say it’s pretty much game over for us.

  80. Matt McDonald says:

    Rhonda,
    When have those things you mentioned had any real impact on the pro-life movement?

    they have deeply impacted our ability to get the message out and especially to counsel women before they enter an abortion clinic.

    What victories can we claim?

    every day women turn away from abortion due to the work of our sidewalk counsellors. Each baby saved is a victory.

    I guess When the death of George Tiller is called “Tragic” and it is legal to kill babies at any point in the womb and they are left to die in hospitals then I’d say it’s pretty much game over for us.

    Giving up hope is not part of the pro-life movement. I think you should read carefully that the real tragedy spoken of is the damage to the pro-life cause. As a number of posters have said, we decry violence ALWAYS, but nobody here is crying our eyes out over Tiller the Killer, he really is not the focus of this issue.

  81. Viona Walsch says:

    Death should never be celebrated.

  82. Viona Walsch says:

    If murder is the answer, I hate to ask what the question is.

  83. paul zummo says:

    et you who condemn abortion stood idly by while priests raped children.

    Ahh, looks like we have reached the point where Jay’s law can be invoked.

    ore abortions took place during the Bush administration than at any other time

    That’s pretty much a lie, but hey, why let facts get in the way of a bigoted argument.

  84. Viona Walsch says:

    You must remember that Dr. Tiller was an OB/GYN acting within the laws of the United States of America. he was one of the only doctors that would perform late term abortions which by law could only be performed under very special circumstances such as the mother’s life was in danger. Very often the fetus was deceased or in a vegetative state before it was removed.

    Please try to understand the pain of families hoping to bring a new life into the world, only to find that the baby they are carrying is deformed or vegetative. Now that Dr. Tillman has been murdered women in such precarious health have few options in that geographical area.

    I note that most of the posters on this site are male. It does not surprise me that your callousness toward women’s healthcare is so clear.

  85. paul zummo says:

    Whoops, hit submit prematurely.

    and yet for 8 years Bush did nothing to attempt to change Roe v. Wade.

    He did the only thing within his power that he could do: he appointed two likely anti-Roe Justices to the Court.

    It’s time to take a stand against young men who carelessly impregnate young girls and leave them with no options. It’s time to educate young girls to have enough self-esteem to say “NO” to sex or at least use birth control.

    Thank you for this sage advice. I will now rethink my intention of encouraging my daughter to have all the pre-marital sex she wants as soon as she turns 13. Thank God you have imparted these words of wisdom so that I avoid the mistake of teaching any sons that I might have to treat women like pieces of meat. What would I have done without you?

    Murdering doctors does not bring any credibility to your cause.

    Wow. Thank you once again for this blindingly obvious piece of information. I’m taking off the bomb I had strapped to my chest as we speak.

  86. paul zummo says:

    e was one of the only doctors that would perform late term abortions which by law could only be performed under very special circumstances such as the mother’s life was in danger.

    Abortion is, for all intents and purposes, legal at all stages of pregnancy. While third trimester abortions may be regulated to a fuller extent, and while many states have bans in place with health exceptions, the fact of the matter is those “health” concerns are defined so broadly as to allow a woman to have abortion as late in her term as she wants for essentially any reason.

    I note that most of the posters on this site are male. It does not surprise me that your callousness toward women’s healthcare is so clear.

    Oh come off it. This is such a stupid charge as to make anything else you say unworthy of attention.

  87. Matt McDonald says:

    Viona Walsch,
    You must remember that Dr. Tiller was an OB/GYN acting within the laws of the United States of America. he was one of the only doctors that would perform late term abortions which by law could only be performed under very special circumstances such as the mother’s life was in danger. Very often the fetus was deceased or in a vegetative state before it was removed.

    That’s what the law stated, but it’s clear from his track record that he was breaking the law.

    Please try to understand the pain of families hoping to bring a new life into the world, only to find that the baby they are carrying is deformed or vegetative. Now that Dr. Tillman has been murdered women in such precarious health have few options in that geographical area.

    Sorry, while we decry violence we do not lament the lack of an executioner for unborn children… even if they are disabled. DO you support the murder of born children with disabilities too???

    I note that most of the posters on this site are male. It does not surprise me that your callousness toward women’s healthcare is so clear.

    Girl babies are murdered as often or more often than boy babies, I don’t see how this is a gender issue.

  88. Rick Lugari says:

    Viona, you are not just incorrect on points of fact, you’re one twisted bird.

  89. TomSVDP says:

    Here goes, I don’t know if there is a login here and late last night, well, I did see a bit of commotion here but it was too late to go through it.

    I just got an email letter back from the LA Times. Yesterday in one of their stories on this incident they wrote “Some pro-life websites hailed the assassination but pro-life leaders denounced it”- http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tiller1-2009jun01,0,7068875.story Now, that really sounds pretty bad.

    I wrote an email letter upon seeing this and it got changed to “some people at pro-life websites hailed the assassination” and the author responded and told me that that part was changed.

    So, indeed, this does show we need to be alert and on our feet.

    It’s a difficult difficult battle, I’ve found education works and was starting to work as the recent poll showed 51% were pro-life. On the other hand, keeping it short, the vice grip of abortion in this country is a bit tyrannical.

    Tiller represented not only the evil of the late term abortions but reading the “down now, did the Feds close it down” operation rescue website, it seems plausible that former Kansas governor/present secretary of health Sibelius was just short of being a puppet directly for Tiller. I wonder how she is taking this, as we’d see pictures of Sibelius with Tiller and all this.

    Okay, that’s all, I hope this posting can go through.

  90. Rhonda says:

    Viona, not to worry, George Tiller had a dedicated colleague who will carry on. And I’m sorry to say you’re a little naive about how the law works when it comes to abortion.
    You can have an abortion any time you want to no matter what. Period. Thank goodness because only “perfect” babies should be born and be loved.

    And, as a Catholic I have to say that I in no way support the murder of George Tiller and I have not opened a bottle of champagne to celebrate it. I wouldn’t waste my champagne or my time. In fact, I’ve wasted all the time I’m going to on him.

    😛

  91. TomSVDP says:

    Bush stopped the Mexico City policy. Isn’t that actually exporting abortion to other countries?? That is one evil. So it’s not like Bush did nothing.

    There was a good chance Tiller was going to have his license suspended, he danced around the law in regards to getting a second opinion. There is a lot to this, he probably did late term abortions up to the day prior to the birth of the child and allegedly him saying this is recorded. Furthermore, he may have done these abortions for the laxest of excuses “I want to go to a rock concert.”

    With funding Sibelius, Tiller may have gotten some government help in escaping the law. I think this is why this whole thing blew up.

    Why in the world? Can anyone tell me, was this going on in Kansas? Was it state or federal law? Tiller was only 1 of 3 physicians who would do these kinds of operations and I think at least 1 woman died at his clinic and other times, ambulances were called out there. His personnell may not have been that licensed at times as well.

    I’m sorry for this act against Tiller, the act of murder.

    I would not expect differently though if I were doing the same thing.

  92. TomSVDP says:

    I’ll amend that above, sorry I have to, Tiller was only one of three doctors in the whole USA that would perform these operations.

    Apologies for the additional posting.

  93. Viona Walsch says:

    Rhonda,
    I certainly do not think only perfect babies should be born! I actually have two less-than perfect ones myself! But I also don’t believe women should have to carry stillborn or vegetative babies to term. I also don’t think doctors should be shot down like dogs for performing a legal service. This is my opinion and contrary to yours, and I imagine someone will delete my post. However, it is sad and ugly to vilify people trying to help other people. Dr. Tillman was making a fraction of what he could have made working in a “typical” ob-gyn practice. His motive was not money, but to offer a service that was not available in that area (Dr. Kern is based out of Colorado).

    Your comment: “I was relieved and happy when I heard the news about George Tiller. I think anybody in their right mind would feel the same way.” made me sad to read. Death should not be celebrated. Ever.

  94. TomSVDP says:

    Viona Walsh: You are not stating any facts, Tiller had a plush clinic in Wichita. He was funding the government.

    At least, I find it rewarding in seeing a name like Walsh, knowing Ireland has had the good sense to keep abortion outlawed.

  95. Foxfier says:

    Why do people always assume I’m male, just because I paid attention to basic biology and refuse to label any human and less than a person?

  96. Rhonda says:

    “I certainly do not think only perfect babies should be born! I actually have two less-than perfect ones myself!”

    Wow, you really think you’re children are less than perfect? This speaks volumes.

  97. Matt McDonald says:

    Viona Walsch,

    I certainly do not think only perfect babies should be born! I actually have two less-than perfect ones myself! But I also don’t believe women should have to carry stillborn

    Why would you insert this red-herring? Any OBGYN or ER doctor will deliver a stillborn baby as soon as it’s medically advisable. This discussion has nothing to do with stillborn babies. Unless of course you’re referring to babies while alive are suspected of being likely to possibly die in utero. Be honest.

    or vegetative babies to term.

    if one of your less than perfect babies became vegetative would you advocate for a doctor to insert a device into their skill and suction the “contents” out in order to relieve you of your emotional suffering? Why would you advocate same for babies in the womb?

    I also don’t think doctors should be shot down like dogs for performing a legal service.

    nor does really anyone on this thread…But YOU advocate that unborn children suspected of abnormalities should be killed like dogs.

    Your comment: “I was relieved and happy when I heard the news about George Tiller. I think anybody in their right mind would feel the same way.” made me sad to read. Death should not be celebrated. Ever.

    But you’re celebrating death in your praise of TIller and his “services”.

  98. TomSVDP says:

    Let’s be careful here, I have not followed the conversation but if Viona nursed some mentally/physically challenged children, we should respect that.

    But otherwise, I do agree that Viona does not seem aware of the facts being dealt with here.

    Here in St. Paul a few months ago, maybe on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, there was a young man who drove his truck into the doorway of Planned Parenthood early in the day, basically before opening and he did little or no damage. It was still a news story and he was reported to be off his rocker a bit. People are impressionable and emotional on this issue as it is a wrong like apartheid. As said above, the issue is tricky. Education being one of the best weapons as with a site like http://www.blackgenocide.org .

  99. Viona Walsch says:

    You probably don’t care, or think people lie (and the majority of late-term abortions are just for fun), but here is a link to a site that tells about doctors who will not do “partial birth abortions” on still born babies.

    I place great worth on a woman’s emotional suffering, and it seems you may not.

    Also, I did not mean to imply by any above posts that I have any children who are special needs. I am lucky that they are healthy, and may God keep them that way.

  100. Rhonda says:

    Viona, when you said: “I certainly do not think only perfect babies should be born! I actually have two less-than perfect ones myself!” I just assumed you meant you had two sons.

  101. Foxfier says:

    I place great worth on a woman’s emotional suffering, and it seems you may not.

    We favor life over emotions.

    You probably don’t care, or think people lie (and the majority of late-term abortions are just for fun),

    Does not follow. We think the majority of abortions are because they do not want a child to be born.

    Your link has several flat-out abortions listed, one of which is for the health of the mother, and all drawn from essays by pro-aborts.

    Never mind that if the woman was going into labor, and the child was simply already dead, simply giving birth to the corpse would work fine. At 19 weeks, the kid is about six inches long. Gross, yes, but so is chopping up the corpse’s head for ease of removal– that is the difference between partial-birth abortion and simple birth.

    Oh, and the 22 week one? The kid would weigh a pound. And children born at 22 weeks are surviving.

    Suctioning out the kid’s brain wasn’t needful to safe the woman’s life.

  102. Gregory says:

    I am shocked when I hear pro-choice people talk about God and mercy on someone’s soul. What have the innocent preborn done to deserve to be murdered by an abortionist? Yet, I hear no pro-choice person praying God’s mercy on the soul of these innocent preborn children – millions of them. We all need the mercy and grace of God daily. However, “we all” also includes the preborn.

  103. Joe Hargrave says:

    Too right Gregory.

    That’s what’s so wrong with this picture – the left wants us and everyone to act as if what Tiller was doing was no different than garbage disposal, to ignore the humanity of his victims.

    It’s not that a man was murdered, it’s that a man may as well have been murdered for performing acupuncture or some other benign ‘service’ for ’emotionally distraught’ women.

    That’s what they really want us to believe. If he were killing Jews on demand in that clinic everyone would be singing a different tune. Jews are people. Nine month old human beings are disposable trash. THAT’S what makes ME angry.

  104. Matt McDonald says:

    Viona Walsch,

    You probably don’t care, or think people lie

    Well I caught you telling lies already, so I’m aware of it. I’m not sure if those are lies of your authorship or if you’re just repeating talking points, but they are lies nonetheless.

    tells about doctors who will not do “partial birth abortions” on still born babies.

    this is all propoganda, there is no moral reason to refuse to deliver a still born baby by whatever means are medically necessary. These procedures are done at every hospital and by any ER or OBGYN that is available.

    I place great worth on a woman’s emotional suffering, and it seems you may not.

    so you place a woman’s emotional suffering over the PHYSICAL suffering and death of an innocent unborn baby girl or boy?

  105. Gregory says:

    If I have to get my wisdom teeth out or my appendix removed, I do not agonize over that decision. So, if the “fetus” is just a fleshy tissue growing inside the mother’s womb, and there’s nothing morally wrong with removing it, why do pro-choice people say that the a woman must “agonize” over the decision to abort or not. What is there to agonize about if it is not wrong? I am so angry at the hypocrisy of the pro-choice side of this discussion. An abortionist cuts off the oxygen supply of a preborn baby by pinching off the umbilical cord. A serial killer cuts off someone’s oxygen by strangling them. A serial killer uses a knife to stab and cut up their victims, and abortionist does the same thing – and some use a vacuum. Why, in one case do we call it serial killing and in another case we call it a choice? The end result of both is the death of a human being. They are both very sick.

  106. breath to breath says:

    Jesus stated “He without sin among you let him cast the first stone at her.” Some religious still stone raped women & own women. Who should own them as a slave? Exodus describes no penalty for women who choose to terminate pregnancy, nor does any Bible verse.

    Medically and historically, a fetus becomes a baby at its first breath. Then, siblings recognize it & it’s named, christened, given citizenship, & celebrates zero. Unless you’re a surrogate, the only way to give rights to unborn is to take away women’s.

    Check out the extremism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/01/george-tiller-abortion-doctor-murder

  107. Foxfier says:

    breath to breath-
    Here, let’s take your red herring about owning women, and apply your logic for abortion:

    Medically and historically, a woman a is not a man, not able to own themselves. They are not recognized as citizens, are not recognized by the law as man’s equal and can contribute little but a chance at male children. Unless you’re giving your own male rights to a single woman, the only way to give rights to women is to take away men’s.

  108. TomSVDP says:

    Breathtobreath: As I inferred earlier, when one reads this story from the Guardian UK, whenever I think of over there, I am glad that Republic of Ireland and in fact, Northern Ireland have abortion illegal practically illegal.

    England itself, representing a negative situation like us, the States. All of this written by someone who may be of Serbian descent, Filopovic and Serbia is well known for having some high abortion rates like it’s cousin, Russia.

  109. Viona Walsch says:

    Tom,
    As an Irish-American, I love my homeland, but it has a long history of harsh maltreatment of children. While the Catholic Church in Ireland has worked hard on behalf of the unborn, we can only hope it will start looking beyond those that are in the womb.

  110. paul zummo says:

    we can only hope it will start looking beyond those that are in the womb.

    Hey, look, Viona’s random anti-Catholic quote generator has spewed yet another oft-repeated cliche. If this thread goes any longer we can be sure to be reading about Galileo.

  111. Daddio says:

    Abortion still exists, with our without Tiller. Any baby Tiller would have killed this week will now be killed by someone else instead.

    That’s why it wasn’t right, or productive, to kill him.

  112. Joe Hargrave says:

    I’m not so sure about that.

    Tiller was one of a very few late-term abortionists. He was not doing Planned Parenthood stuff, you realize. He was butchering infants days away from birth. Not many people are willing to commit such crimes against humanity.

  113. Viona Walsch says:

    Actually, Mr. Hargrave, most of his abortions were 20-25 weeks. But this shouldn’t matter, should it? All babies have the same potential worth, correct?

    Are you saying that you support the “Planed Parenthood stuff” because the fetus is less developed?

  114. Matt McDonald says:

    Viona,

    Viona Walsch,

    Actually, Mr. Hargrave, most of his abortions were 20-25 weeks. But this shouldn’t matter, should it? All babies have the same potential worth, correct?

    All babies have the same ACTUAL worth according to your Catholic Faith, if your really are Catholic that is.

    Joe,

    PP does abortions as late as their medical facilities can provide. They are building a massive facility in Houston to provide abortions in the 3rd trimester.

  115. Phillip says:

    “Medically and historically a fetus becomes a baby at its first breath…”

    True enough. Just a developmental stage however, as when a baby becomes a toddler when it takes its first step or a child becomes a teen when it stops thinking and is rude to all adults.

    Though an individual human being became a distinct human being at the moment of conception. No other time when human individual distinctness is established.

  116. Foxfier says:

    Just a developmental stage however, as when a baby becomes a toddler when it takes its first step or a child becomes a teen when it stops thinking and is rude to all adults.

    Hey! Some folks never STOP being rude and failing to think!

  117. Joe Hargrave says:

    No, I do not support what PP does – nor did I know they did late-term abortions as Matt says.

    I will admit that while I am totally opposed to all abortion, late-term abortion strikes me as particularly disgusting, and when done only a day before birth – as Tiller admitted to doing on video – is no longer abortion but infanticide.

  118. Matt McDonald says:

    Joe,

    I will admit that while I am totally opposed to all abortion, late-term abortion strikes me as particularly disgusting, and when done only a day before birth – as Tiller admitted to doing on video – is no longer abortion but infanticide.

    again, aside from the emotional imagery, how is it any more heinous? The victim is no more human, no more valuable in the sight of God?

  119. Phillip says:

    Foxfier,

    Yes, the forever teen! 🙂

  120. Joe Hargrave says:

    Matt,

    Aside from ’emotional imagery’, it isn’t different at all.

    But I’m not a computer, I’m a man, and different things strike me in different ways. Can I be allowed to be more disgusted at one thing than another? It’s not as if I think there is a moral difference or that there should be a legal difference.

  121. Matt McDonald says:

    Joe,
    But I’m not a computer, I’m a man, and different things strike me in different ways. Can I be allowed to be more disgusted at one thing than another? It’s not as if I think there is a moral difference or that there should be a legal difference.

    Not at all, but it’s important I think, to be clear on one’s position to avoid confusion about this matter.

  122. TomSVDP says:

    First off, this event is wrong and I knew who Tiller was well ahead of time, it was a shock that I probably would have had to sit down if I hadn’t been. But on the net, I’ve seen so many Protestants aparently coming out and talking about the right to life with all this that it is amazing. Take that http://www.sodahead.com , I really think from all walks of life, the responses are 60% or more pro-life and that website, has a good cross section I’d say, lots of women. I just have to add in, I’ve seen pro-life atheists before too.

    Interestingly, the ELCA Church of Tiller, it looks like in fact, it may have had a woman pastor http://www.reformation-lutheran.org/ “The Rev. Kristin Neitzel”. It is not for me to criticize but I have seen from not that far, these stirrings in the church, Episcopalian, Presbyterian and to a lesser extent Lutheran and in fact, branches of those churches in recent years with all this liberalism. I’ve read Lutheran information on abortion and though, some are adamant against it in their many split churches, some of their denominations are not hostile to the idea of abortion at all imho.

    Lastly, going unnamed, but my gosh, the poor slain doctor seems to be made out to be like Mother Teresa to someone who has spoken here who will be unnamed. “Tiller is making only a fraction of what he could as an OB/GYN” and other things. Spouting the responses we here, hey, maybe none of us can judge unless we’ve been the aborted one. Not my place to be righteous though, I know that. Life is a process of conversion.

  123. TomSVDP says:

    What a quote: did someone else say this?http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/

    “A man who stiffens his neck after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed – without remedy.” Proverbs 29:1

  124. Blaise says:

    If Hitler or Stalin would have been assasinated, would we say we condemn that action? How many innocent lives would have been saved? Tiller the Killer killed how many babies and would have continued to kill how many more? I think the man who assasinated him should be a hero; he saved many babies. Proof in point; if a man were attempting to stab little kids in your neighbor’s back yard (and had a track recording of murders- while stating he would continue to do so- even though he didn’t believe the children were human) and you shot the perpetrator as he was attempting to do harm to them, would we condemn you because of that action? I think not; nor do I condemn or disagree with this man’s courage in defending the babies. The man who shot Tiller, knew and knows the pro-aborts will make sure he gets the death penalty. Instead of saying this man’s actions run counter to being truly pro-life, maybe we need to reevaluate and consider whether he is more pro-life than almost all of us- us who say we want to protect the babies, but don’t act to do something to give these innocent little ones the defense they deserve.

  125. Matt McDonald says:

    Blaise,

    the difference is that we live in a democracy and have other means available to fight this evil. Violence can only be a last resort, and that is just not the case in the US.

    In addition to the above their is another key element missing in your analogy. He was not attempting to do harm when he was killed, he was ushering at a religious service.

    I question whether you really are against abortion, because you’re attitude is clearly not pro-life.

  126. TomSVDP says:

    Er: I put figures up above but now, I heard it is 60,000 abortions Tiller did, heard this on Relative Radio.

    People, this shows how big the business can be and of all things, these abortion counselors often work on a commission! Unbelievable,

    Maybe as small as $25 an abortion but if they are able to counsel 25 abortions a week, that’s $2500 a month. This lady who was on the Relevant Radio show sounded like some months she did a whole lot more than that.

    Also, just think, if we are talking of 60,000 abortions and $4000 or $5000 an abortion? That’s a ton of money.

    I think the state of Kansas as much broke down in governing this business and is to be held responsible in part for this outcome.

  127. TomSVDP says:

    Hopefully, the only weapon I should ever use in life is my Rosary.

  128. TomSVDP says:

    For a Protestant website and a Fundamentalist minister, http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/ isn’t this guy right some of the time.

    Our way, is the way of the cross.

    “The Way of the Cross: No Cheap Solutions
    God’s answer to the abortion holocaust in America is in the repentance of His Church, not in the extermination of an individual abortionist, or in the extermination of all abortionists. His answer is not in the destruction of a solitary clinic or the destruction of every clinic. His answer is in the changed heart of His Church.”

  129. Donna V. says:

    Viona: I read large chunks of the Ryan Report about physicial and sexual abuse in Ireland and it made me naseous. Really, I haven’t stopped thinking about it all week.

    But what society should strive for is to treat both born and unborn children as humans with value. To a pro-abort, an unborn child’s worth depends entirely on another the feelings of the mother. If she doesn’t want the baby, it’s a nonperson. If you care about children, why on earth would you wish to see them harmed at any point in their existence? Hacking them to bits in the womb is morally superior to beating the daylights out of them after they’re born?

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