The Ground Zero Mosque and Religious Freedom, Part Three

In my previous posts on this topic (Part One and Part Two) and the comments contained therein, one of the things which I feel is missing in this discussion is a dialog about the humanity of Muslims. Are Muslims human? Do Muslims have a religious sense? Do Muslims desire for truth, beauty and goodness? In stead of writing about this, I am going to show you. Watch this entire 60 Minutes program and judge it. It is simply amazing. Let us dialog about it in the comments.

The People Behind The Mosque

21 Responses to The Ground Zero Mosque and Religious Freedom, Part Three

  1. T. Shaw says:

    Yes. Atla, Hitler, Mao and Stalin were human.


    No! No! No!

  2. Art Deco says:

    one of the things which I feel is missing in this discussion is a dialog about the humanity of Muslims. Are Muslims human? Do Muslims have a religious sense?

    A thought from P.J. O’Rourke: “when the antithesis to a statement is absurd, the original statement didn’t need to be made”.

    Do Muslims desire for truth, beauty and goodness?

    Which, and of what might that consist in their minds?

  3. T. Shaw says:


    WSJ: 9/27/2010: Letters: The demands of the Muslims in this country and in Europe are too extreme. There is no other immigrant group so demanding and so sensitive about what they consider their rights and their way of thinking.

    Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf claims there will be great repercussions if the mosque near Ground Zero is not allowed to be built. This is a direct threat to all of us, indeed to the whole world. It is scary knowing that this man is so controlling and defensive.
    M. M., Falmouth, ME

  4. Pauli says:

    ♫ Puff, the Magic Dragon, lived by the sea…. ♫

  5. David Jones says:

    It’s inappropriate to claim Muslims (in general) are identical to Atla, Hitler, Mao and Stalin.

    Moral Theology 101 – You must ask yourself who committed the act and what did they actually do?

    Let’s cease in dealing with abstractions and look a real human faces. Is the Ground Zero Mosque developer, the Imam there, or are the Muslims who pray there responsible for the evil acts of 9-11? No. Is Al-Qaeda, specifically Osama bin Laden, responsible for 9-11? Yes.

    Is the developer or Imam members of the militant/radical (Dark Side) of Islam? No.

    Should Muslims address their acceptance of and promotion of violence in the advancement of their faith in an attempt to reform it as Pope Benedict XVI suggests? Yes. One could make a strong argument that is exactly what this Imam has been doing for years with support from our own government.

    It’s much harder to demonize your opponents once you see their human faces… Have you watched the 60 Minutes program? If not, ensure you do so.

  6. T. Shaw says:

    DJ: Sorry you feel that way.

    They started the war. That war is here not in A-stan or Iraq. Someone will have to end it. You’re not in it here.

    I have two in my recon area. We had one working with us (Exchange Place) when they attacked us. He was ecstatic and too freaking infallibly ignorant to hide it. He is gone. One of the targets told me (I’m undercover) that allah will burn in hell all the polytheists. He’s too coy to say what Allah’ll do to us Trinitarian infidels.

  7. Art Deco says:

    You have an affection for strawmen.

    It is not demonizing the opposition to note that action and reaction in certain seminal circumstances generates a charge that you will pay from now into the forseeable future. It is also not demonizing the opposition to remark that they propose to do something in exceedingly poor taste. It is in addition not demonizing the opposition to call attention to the stupid statements their front-man has made over the years.

  8. Andy says:

    “Is the developer or Imam members of the militant/radical (Dark Side) of Islam? No.”

    I didn’t know there was a Light side to a false religion.

    Yes, dialogue is important. But if the purpose of dialogue is not conversion to the Way, Truth, and the Life, then we are at the very least wasting our time; more importantly we are not acting out of true (and informed) Charity for the souls of the Muslims; and worst of all, as in most cases of modern dialogue, we are probably sinning against the 1st Commandment through indifferentism.

  9. lisag says:

    Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all Terrorists are Muslim. They are still plotting against us. Some are successful and some are not. There are training camps and mosques in the U.S. that preach the destruction of U.S. and Israel. Slowly, they will infiltrate the schools, local governments, business and military (oh, they done that)to change our society to accept Sharia law. All you have to ask yourself is would you want to be a Christian in a Muslim country. We must protect our religious rights and freedoms.

  10. Pauli says:

    Join ACT. One way to stay informed and fight back.

  11. David Jones says:

    Andy – The Dark Side of Islam is a term I picked up from Abdul Saleeb and R.C. Sproul. Abdul was an Islamic jurist, an expert in the Koran, Hadith & Sharia, before he converted to Christianity. He serves as a consultant on Islam to the British government, etc. It simply means that not all Muslims are radical or militant, but there is that legitimate side to Islam as well. There is a radical political ideology which is inherant to it. This radical/militant “side” of Islam is rooted in its very origins. Daniel Pipes estimates 10% are active members of this side of Islam with another 20-30% supporting it. Do the math. How many did it take to execute the 9-11 plans? That’s why this “side” of Islam is such a threat to the West and the U.S.

    Lisag – Not all terrorists are Muslims… Look no farther than several Marxist groups in Asia, Africa or the Americas. Look at the tactics that some Zionists used before Israel was declared a nation-state. To be sure violence is an issue which Muslims must internally address and deal with to become productive members of the modern world society.

    To all – How can we as Catholics Americans forget our collective experiences here in this country? How can we promote religious discrimination and bigotry against others when we ourselves have been victims of it? To do so is not reasonable. There is a better way. We must recognize their dignity. The fact remains that they are also made in the “image of God.” We must love our neighbors…

  12. Phillip says:

    “How can we promote religious discrimination and bigotry against others when we ourselves have been victims of it?”

    That would be so if to equate opposition to the GZM as necessarily being rooted in bigotry. That is as reductive as claiming that all Muslims are extremists. Some oppose the GZM out of hatred of Islam. Some because they find the location as offensive. Just as opposition to the convent at Auschwitz was not necessarily the result of anti-Catholic bigotry but was deemed offensive by a number of Jews. Nor was the desire for the convent to be moved denying the dignity of the nuns. You cannot conclude the same here either.

  13. Art Deco says:

    To all – How can we as Catholics Americans forget our collective experiences here in this country?

    Did it ever occur to you some of us might be recalling a wider array of ‘collective experiences’?

    Back on Earth here, the question at hand is whether the men behind Imam Rauf get to build their thingy at that site in the Financial District or whether they might have to take it to Chelsea or Brooklyn Heights. That would be trouble rather less severe than the civic disabilities imposed on Maryland Catholics after 1645.

  14. Andy says:


    Is true love of neighbor allowing them to fester within a false religion, destined for eternal damnation. Or would true love be to bravely proclaim to them the Gospel unto the salvation of their immortal souls?

    Isn’t it more than slightly convenient that your version of the Gospels is perfectly aligned with political correctness and the general modern attitudes toward diversity and tolerance? Shouldn’t that raise some warning flags for you, if your discipleship comes at no cost from the world; perhaps you’re off track?

  15. T. Shaw says:


    If 20% of Muslims are terrorist sympathizers and 10% are active mass murderers . . . 1.3 million already here: that’s 65,000 (male) hostiles in the US of A, and maybe 6,000 regular war fighters waiting for orders. How many battalions is that?

    There has to be close to 8,000 and skatey-eight other sites in New York County (Manhattan) that terrorist sympatizers can spend $100 million to construct a thirteen-story, meeting/greeting/recruiting/strategerizing center.

    That means it’s less-than appropriate that you villify (“bigotry and religious discrimination”) those that oppose the GZ Massacre Victory Mosque?

  16. DP says:

    “Is true love of neighbor allowing them to fester within a false religion, destined for eternal damnation…”

    The Church doesn’t teach that those of other religions are, necessarily, destined for damnation. And it’s presumptuous to declare, as a matter of fact, that they are.

  17. andy says:

    There are indeed concepts such as Invincible Ignorance and Baptism of Desire, but we are charged by Our Lord to preach the Gospel to all men and that He is the only way to the Father.

    It is perfectly in line with our Catholic Faith, and the Gospels, to tell our Muslim friends to believe and be baptism in the Name of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

    I highly encourage everyone to listen to the sermon posted above.

    Daud, have you listened to it? Thoughts?

  18. David Jones says:

    Allow me to re-state my position. Catholics should permit or allow the Mosque to be built, but it would be most prudent if it was built at an alternative location because of the scandal it causes the families of the 9-11 victims to be built at the current location. This is a prudential matter and good Catholics (& Americans) can disagree about what should be done.

    Yes of course Muslims should be evangelized. You must give respect to the person you’re evangelizing though. They are also made in the “Image of God.” If you show no respect to the Other, how effective do you believe your evangelization efforts will be? You must meet them where they are, not where you desire them to be. You should first discover what you agree upon and then work on the issues which you do not. With no friendship, there will be no dialog. With no grace, there will be no conversion. We must be a people of prayer who serve others before ourselves. We must love our neighbors…

  19. Andy says:

    OK.. at least I think we’re getting somewhere now.. So, the purpose of dialogue is ultimately conversion to the One Holy Catholic Faith. If we could only stipulate this point at the highest Church levels most of the 40 years of acrimony between Traditionalists and Magisterialists would be wiped away.

  20. […] The Ground Zero Mosque And Religious Freedom, Part Four I would like to continue our conversation regarding The Ground Zero Mosque, Religious Freedom, and Interfaith Dialog with Islam. Earlier posts on this topic can be found here (Part One, Part Two, & Part Three). […]

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